Are they Republicans, or The End Times Party? Palin, McCain, and the agenda to start Armageddon.

It scare hell me. And It's not based on politics. Because I don't think that any sane person consciously and intentionally works to bring about the end of the world, but the fact that if you believe something as incontrovertibly and fanaticly as the Evangelicals and Religious Right do, that no matter how much they claim to be fair and unbiased, their decisions are going to be bent towards the inclination that the world is doomed to destruction anyway, and why not treat it like a sewer? This is called a Self fulfilling Prophesy and I don't want them running my Government!

It means I missed the "s" when I typed, for someone who claims to be so smart, you sure do have trouble figuring things out these little for yourself. I think I see a pattern here. No one else had any problem with it. If you can't be insulting you wouldn't have anything to say, so if you do it anymore and go off target to be disrespectful I will delete it. You have been given fair warning.

If you continue this line of questioning I will delete your post. It's the How can you claim to have such faith in God question, that I want to avoid here, you do understand this don't you. That is not the direction we need to take here.

No need, we're cool. In fact thanks'. I think that was good. It let me elaborate more on the purpose of my articale, and I hope everyone will respect my goal here of bringing this out and talking about it in as rational way as posable without getting all metaphysical about it. :)

Like I'm going to have now. Just we atheist, talking. Or did you forget to use your dictionary and look up "Secular" so you knew what it means. DON"T TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE ON THE MEANING OF A WORD< ANYMORE ATTEMPTS TO JACK MY ARTICLE AND YOU WILL BE DELTED!

Originally posted by Scott (Scoop) Butki, here; (posting this just in case things might get ugly)

You are now reading and posting on a user column on Newsvine.com, MSNBC's recently aquired social news property. Please be aware that there are certain standards and expectations on this site, most of which are outlined in our Code of Honor.

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One cannot discuss secular as such without also discussing its contrast. Especially in a thread devoted to the discussion of God in politics...?

If this is beyond your cognitive abilities to discuss, without being metaphysical and biased, then please do not participate and just read. You do not have to believe in Zeus talk about the mythology of the Norse Gods.

The only reason you ever come into any of my articles is to argue about it. This makes you a STALKER. I have explained this, and you continue with your predilection to evade the issue while others, perhaps more intelligent than you pretend to be, have no trouble understanding.

I did not BANE discussion on Religions. Just discussion within a religious context. If you can not grasp the subtle distinction, then please leave.

This is my article and I have asked that you respect that, and that means respect me and my articles topic and the grounds for discusion, time and time agsin. Apparently, you are not as aware as you think. You are banned,> I will be deleting every post you make here from this point on. If you don't like it contact the Newsvine Staff, It's their Web site. And there is a code of honor.

Read the article again. Starting with; Do you expect a President and Vise President...

Neither do I. So now what can we do to prevent it? Education is key. Not whitewashing the truth. I don't think McCain or Palin are evil, I do think that the Republicans are embracing the concept of theocracy and would like to see the separation of church and state taken out of the 1st amendment. I have heard the argument repeatedly that there isn't one, by the Far-Right evangelicals. Drinking Kool-aid and forcing it on others is what they do. Why do the Republicans want their vote? What are the repercussions if they come to power?

"I have been just reading the new constitution of Spain. One of its fundamental bases is expressed in these words: 'The Roman Catholic religion, the only true one, is, and always shall be, that of the Spanish nation. The government protects it by wise and just laws, and prohibits the exercise of any other whatever.' Now I wish this presented to those who question what [a bookseller] may sell or we may buy, with a request to strike out the words, 'Roman Catholic,' and to insert the denomination of their own religion. This would ascertain the code of dogmas which each wishes should domineer over the opinions of all others, and be taken, like the Spanish religion, under the 'protection of wise and just laws.' It would show to what they wish to reduce the liberty for which one generation has sacrificed life and happiness. It would present our boasted freedom of religion as a thing of theory only, and not of practice, as what would be a poor exchange for the theoretic thraldom, but practical freedom of Europe." --Thomas Jefferson to N. G. Dufief, 1814.

A cult is just like any other religion, just without any political clout.

You only gave a short, one sentence remark, so You didn't say much of anything. It was very clear what you said, to the point with no ambiguity. I just explained to you why I made that picture, as unnerving as you seem to think it is, and that was exactly what I was going for. So Thanks for your eloquent critique. I hope we can move on from here without blowing this up into a separate issue.

in such a manner that it may serve to alienate Christians that aren't down for bringing about the Rapture via political means.

I am not responsible for someone else's thin skin. My advise to them is to Get over it. The problem is real. If you are offended by this fact, and do not address the cause, then you are part the problem, I did not create the problem, I just brought it up for a well overdue discussion. It's not my dirty laundry.

There is nothing that I, or any one person alone, can say that will persuade the hard core fanatics in any case. They are a fringe minority who need to be publicly chastised and ostracized. They need the total condemnation all rational members of society, Especial by Christians who don't take the Bible so literally as to be self destructive and or militant, to change, nothing less will do any good. We must become the change we want to see in the world.Mahatma Gandhi
Being reasonable is not a quality that fanatics have an over abundance of. Regardless of what "Faith" they follow.

So what can you do, as a responsible and rational person. Do you go on a Jihad and wipe out the blasphemers and burn the heretics? Do you follow Jim Jones and drink deeply of the Kool-aid, and give it to your children to drink? Or do you do everything possible to stop him and knock the cup out of their hands and dump the Kool-aid on the ground, even though the majority condemn you for it, maybe even try and kill you? Answer this.. Which is the most righteous and moral thing to do? Everyone needs to step up and confront this, or saty out of the way. Those are the only two options to solve this.

"It is not only for what we do that we are held responsible, but also for what we do not do."Moliere

Freedom without obligation is anarchy. Freedom with obligation is democracy.Earl Riney

Not here.

Hi Nearing. I save you for last. Dan, you have posed a very good question that I believe the only reasoned answer to is NO! Yes that is also what I concluded, so now what? That is the ultimate question we face here Isn't it? This what i want to talk about here.

As a wise man said once. Asking one right question has more value then finding a million right answers to the wrong questions. I don't know who said that, I'm 54 years old so it might have been me? I don't always remember everything I ever said. But then if I think I'm wise then it proves I'm not [I forgot who said that as well] so it couldn't have been me. Regardless of any of that, this is as important a question as it can get isn't it.

Not the question of "Is there a God or not?" For those of 'Faith" this is a given. But the question of What is the logical end result of the Christian Faith, [this solution is obvious, they answer it for us, The end of the world. I'm not talking about the christians that see this as a metaphor for the end of the world order and the beginning of an age of enlightenment, I'm taking about those who take it literarily.] and what do we do about it? This Is the question we should be asking and finding a solution for. And not just disregarding it is a hard uncomfortable question, or because it is offensive to the "faithful" and they think it is a personal attack, orit is not PC because they have clout.

In one scenario, based on absolute 'Faith' in a 2000+ year old book, only a third of mankind and the world survive at best. And at the worst, everyone could die. I don't see any rational person having any moral dilemma in concluding here that not having this mindset at all would be the best for everyone? And anything less is a loose, Loose situation. So again, I stress the purpose of this article. What do we do now? How can we turn this around? Is the wall of Separation between Church and State High enough? Or what else can we do?

Like I said, I can't see any Christians being open, even for the discussing of it by others, to this line of questioning. Although I hope some can. In Fact... They some will see it as an Attack by athiest.

I don't know what to do, I can't in good conscience ignore it. I see it as nothing less then a moral imperative. Just as I would seeing someone walk in front of a car, do you let them get hit or do you stop them. It's the same thing but on an extreme order of magnitude. I can only see that we talk about it more. Just as we are now. Keep asking the question.

I know how you feel about the FISA law and the Bill that Obama voted for that, extends it. And to tell you the truth, I ams certian that I felt more betrayed then you did in this bill being passed. Because I have met Barack Obama and thought I could trust him to do the right thing. I don't trust easily. Having said that, you know what my position is now.

FISA was an existing law. And regardless of Obama's 'No" vote, it would not have stopped it from being extended and passed. But what he did do though was the next best thing, he negotiate and brokered a compromise to the bill. Giving to Bush and the telecoms just they asked for, but only just, Immunity from "civil" prosecution. So now, I can't sue Verizon.

Bush is not among the smartest of men, and I think his ego only allows him surround himself with people who aren't motivated to take any initiative, who do not question him, or bother to look any deeper then they are told, which tells us volumes. Because Obama pulled one over them here, Big time, and took a lot of heat for it from his supporters. I told you what it is. But the caveat to making it happen is he has to become President."The ground of liberty is to be gained by inches, [and] we must be contented to secure what we can get from time to time and eternally press forward for what is yet to get. It takes time to persuade men to do even what is for their own good." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Clay, 1790. Obama knows this, he knows that in order to do the most good, you need to be in a Position to do the most good and do what you can do when you can do it, then when the time is right, you can do more, you do it. I intend to do all that I can do to give him this opportunity. It is a sure bet, it is not going to make any difference if we don't have a President who is willing to pursue the criminals in office. Obama is the only candidate that has said he intends to do this and I believe him. He has said this more then once, and Joe Biden has confirmed it.

I voted for Obama three times now, He's my Senator and I did some work for him as a graphic designer. Obama is a Constitutional lawyer and is personnel outraged at what the Bush administration has been doing to our most sacred of Documents, the DoJ, and the Supreme court. To just name a few things. If Obama is in Office, I am sure that a Fascist state is the something he will never allow under any circumstances.

"Crooked schemes will end by overwhelming their authors and coadjutors in disgrace, and... he alone who walks strict and upright, and who, in matters of opinion, will be contented that others should be as free as himself, and acquiesce when his opinion is fairly overruled, will attain his object in the end." --Thomas Jefferson to Gideon Granger, 1804.

Obama knows this far better then I do. A Compromise is not a surrender or a betrayal. Keep you eye on the ball, it's not over yet.

Smart Lady. Wait till the wedding night before giving it up. :)

No, I deleted them because you are trying to jack this article, and twist what was said in order to do so. I'm Talking about Cults and the psychological implications and social damage to society by following them. If you can't make the distinction between the two, then ask it to be explained to you. Otherwise your attacks and attempts to maneuver this article off the subject of my stated premise for discussion you will be deleted.

But what if you really beat your wife? It happens. Would this not a viable discussion. Are you suggesting that people of the Christian"Faith" do NOT believe in the "End of days" and the second coming of the Messiah", then you would be justified in your criticism. but seeing how that is not the case... and if you really are an atheist... then my "point should be quite clear.

I don't think it's a matter of the right 'bringing it about' so much as their belief that everything they are seeing and hearing from their evangelical pastors, lends to thinking that the end times are near.

Exactly. And I think I said as much, but perhaps not a clearly as you just did. I don't think anyone is consciously working for this goal, but it is the logical outcome if they have a strong enough "Faith" they will bring it about. They see War in the middle east as a good sign. War is a sign that something is wrong and is never good. Do you think that those who followed Jim Jones did it with the initial goal of killing themselves? What brought them to that end? This is what I want to explore here. Without the trappings and false logic or a bias for any metaphysical answers.

Don't tell me how to moderate my column. I will not allow the discussion to be jacked into another endless debate on religion. There are enough of those. If you don't like it go write your own column. You are free to say what you like in it, no one will censor you. This is a closed issue, and I expect you to Respect this, and me.

Noble sentiments

Let us follow our forefathers leadership, leave religion to the churches and government first and foremost to the people through the State houses , Capital building, White House and Courts.

You needed to have a comma between, Churches, and Government, to make them separate thoughts and not inclusive of one another. Am I safe to assume that is what you meant? If so, there are some other problems. So for those that wish follow you religious beliefs but vote and be active in the govenance of your community and Country. I don't follow you here? I can put commas in different places and make mean different things and did you mean to spell "You're" and not "you"?

It's not as obvious as that, though perhaps with some fanatics. You are always hearing that, this or that disaster is the wrath of God. Or a leader saying he gets his orders from God. As Bush has said "God Speaks through me!" What worries me is what they don't say, but determines what they decide based on a faith that sees the end of the world as the will of god and they are justified in following their Faith, in his name. We need to keep this kind of thinking out of government.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814.